It’s Not You, It’s the Alcohol

September 19, 2022

Meet Suzanne

Suzanne is the host of the popular sobriety podcast, The Sober Mom Life, and is also a sobriety and lifestyle influencer at My Kind of Sweet. Suzanne quit drinking more than 4 years ago and has found freedom from moderation, a message she proudly shares with the world. When she's not glamorizing sobriety, Suzanne enjoys spending her time with her 3 kids, her husband, and her dog, Georgia, all while reheating her coffee, until she eventually forgets it in the microwave.

After a 90-day break from alcohol, Gill Tietz noticed something surprising – the anxiety and depression she had spent years trying to escape  through alcohol had vanished. This shocking realization inspired her to research and analyze her experience. Through this she learned that alcohol was creating lower serotonin levels in her body and changing her brain function.

Alcohol was truly the source of her pain. 

She knew this life changing realization was going to be important to far more people than just her. This was how the Sober Powered podcast was born.

Learn more and connect with Gil:


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It’s Not You, It’s the Alcohol with Gill Tietz

Speaker 1 (00:00):

I wish more people would listen to our podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):

I know. I feel like this is why we need to do an ad. So this is an ad for brand new information, a pop culture and political podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:10):

We’re a couple Gen Xers who talk about pop culture and political stuff on the brand new information pop culture and political podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:19):

Okay. But we’re not a couple we’re siblings. It sounded like you said we’re a couple <laugh>. That was so gross. No, we’re siblings. That’s my brother. I’m his sister. Listen to us wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi. Welcome to the Sober Mom Life podcast. I’m your host Suzanne of my kind of suite and the sober mom life on Instagram. If you are a mama who has questioned your relationship with alcohol at times, if you’re wondering if maybe it’s making motherhood harder, this is for you. I will be having candid, honest, funny conversations with other moms who have also thought, Hmm, maybe motherhood is better without alcohol. Is it possible? We’ll chat and we’ll talk about all things sobriety and how we’ve found freedom in sobriety. I don’t consider myself an alcoholic. You don’t have to either. And maybe life is brighter without alcohol. I hope you will join us on this journey, and I’m so excited to get started.

Hello, we have Jill from Sober Powered on today. You guys, this episode is filled with facts about what alcohol does, what it does to our anxiety, our mental health, our serotonin, all of these scientific facts that you guys know. I, I don’t normally provide facts. I don’t FactCheck , I don’t do, I don’t do anything scientific based. So I thought it was really important to share some actual facts. And Jill is just a delight. Her drinking story and her sobriety story, I think is super relatable. Um, and I, I think you guys will really like her. So please enjoy Jill from Sober Powered.

All right. We have Jill from Silver Powered on here. Jill, I’m so excited to talk to you. I was just saying, I’m excited to talk to you because you actually know what you’re talking about. I mean, , not that we don’t know what we’re talking about, but you have a master’s in biology, so you know all about this, so I’m so excited. Thank you. No pressure. Yeah, right. No, you’re, you’re the expert. You’re the expert for the silver mom life. . No, I do wanna get into like all of that and, and all of like what really happens with our brains and the sugar and the anxiety and all of that. But first I wanna know your story. So what is your, Well just tell us about you and then tell us kind of about your drinking story.

Speaker 3 (03:10):

Yeah. So I’m Jill. Yes. I’ll start there. and I’m almost three years sober.

Speaker 2 (03:17):


Speaker 3 (03:18):

Nice. Um, I live in the Boston area. I’m married. Okay. Um, I, and the main reason that I stopped drinking was because of mental health. So that was because I have a master’s degree and um, I had a good job. I have a husband or marriage was fine. We live in a house, We pay our bills because of all that, I justified for a really long time why my drinking wasn’t that bad and I had a lot of reasons that I could justify. Um, so I stayed stuck in that because of all of the things that I had in my life. It didn’t mean my life was any good. I just had a lot of reasons why it wasn’t that bad.

Speaker 2 (04:00):

Yeah. So like you hadn’t lost or it wasn’t the quote unquote rock bottom that we kind of are taught to wait for. Right,

Speaker 3 (04:08):

Exactly. Yeah. I didn’t destroy my life on the outside. Yeah. All of my stuff was internal and that was the problem. Like on the outside, I seem like this fun party lady that liked to go out sometimes and yeah. Drink with her friends. But in reality, I had a rotation of people I would go out with because they wanted to drink and party. So I, they didn’t know what I was doing when they weren’t around. I was going out with other friends and binge drinking for five hours and then they didn’t know that I would go home and I’d keep the party going by myself. Yeah. So a lot of people had no clue what was actually going on. And that’s damaging too. Like when you try to stop drinking and people are like, You’re not that bad though. Like, you don’t actually have a problem.

What are you taught? Like, just moderate. So I got a lot of that from people and, but overall it was, it was very bad mental health. I had anxiety from all the drinking, um, that I developed towards the end. Mm-hmm. , um, anxiety is not something that I struggle with thankfully, but I did develop it and then my depression became so bad and it was mixed with really horrible self-worth and self-esteem from all the drinking and letting myself down every day that I got really, really suicidal at the end. Mm-hmm. . And that was the main catalyst. Um, so I actually, I challenged myself the first time to seven days sober.

Speaker 2 (05:46):

Okay. And so you were able to kind of connect the anxiety and the depression and the suicidal ideations, all of that, back to alcohol?

Speaker 3 (05:56):

Not in the beginning, no. I thought I suck. When I developed anxiety, I was like, Well, here’s another problem, Add it to my list. Yeah. And when I started feeling really suicidal, I’m just a suicidal person. Like it was always me. And I never realized, and this is why I talk about it so much, is because I never realized alcohol could affect your mental health. Mm-hmm. , I had no idea. Yeah. I thought it was my fault. It couldn’t be the precious wine. Um, and it took stopping

Speaker 2 (06:32):

Cuz we’re taught that everyone should be able to drink. Yep. Alcohol responsibly. Right. And then if you can’t, or if it’s affecting you in a negative way, it’s something’s wrong with you.

Speaker 3 (06:42):

Yep. It’s your fault. You need to just learn to moderate. You need to stop drinking to excess, like

Speaker 2 (06:49):

Oh. Right. And like drink responsibly. I’m like, Okay, show me what that is. Okay.

Speaker 3 (06:53):

Yeah. Really, thanks for the tip.

Speaker 2 (06:55):

Yeah, yeah. Good, good talk . Okay, so you tried seven days. You were like, I’m gonna do seven days without alcohol.

Speaker 3 (07:03):

Yeah. So I wanted, I was scared I was an alcoholic.

Speaker 2 (07:07):


Speaker 3 (07:08):

So I started asking myself like, how do you know? I, I realized my drinking, it was a little different from other people’s. Mm-hmm. , I still thought everyone drank like me. Yeah. But I, in terms of like quantity and frequency, but I had consequences that they didn’t have. They weren’t throwing up in the street mm-hmm. or blacking out and forgetting the last couple hours of their night. They didn’t have intense self-hatred. So I started picking up on some differences and that was when I was like, maybe I’m an alcoholic. And then I’d go like, not me.

Speaker 2 (07:46):

That’s a big jump, right. From like enjoying kind of enjoying your alcohol to like, Oh, I’m an alcoholic and this is the badge that I will have to wear. It was like, oh,

Speaker 3 (07:57):

It’s such a bad word. Mm-hmm. and it makes you feel so horrible about yourself. And I really thought you either drink or you’re a loser with no self-control and you’re an alcoholic. Yes. I didn’t know like the middle.

Speaker 2 (08:11):

Yeah. We’re cuz we’re not taught that. I remember like when I was like, okay, I’m done. I, for some reason and this is just coming to me, I’m like, oh my God, is it gonna be like in the paper like Suzanne’s an alcoholic? Like it feels like, oh my god. You know what I mean? Like okay, here’s the list of the people that were at the Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Even though it’s anonymous, but still it just feels like, oh, now everyone’s gonna know that there’s something wrong with me.

Speaker 3 (08:37):

Exactly. And I’m jumping years into the future. But yeah, I recently quit my job and went full-time podcaster.

Speaker 2 (08:48):

So exciting.

Speaker 3 (08:48):

And a lot of people from my old professional life in biotech found out and they see like sober powered and there’s so much attention now on my LinkedIn page. Like so many people are coming. Yeah. From, I haven’t even thought about them in years. And they’re like looking at, so I feel like there’s this whole like, I had no idea. I didn’t really chill was an alcoholic.

Speaker 2 (09:15):

There’s this like shot in Freud kind of, of like, Ooh, let’s see how far she fell. Yes. Like, I wanna hear her rock bottom. Ooh. I wonder how bad it

Speaker 3 (09:23):

Got. Yeah. Yeah. And then like analyzing, you know, when they did know me, like were there any signs? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:30):

Was she drunk at

Speaker 3 (09:30):

Work? Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (09:32):

And you know, we always talk about here that that’s really just them trying to figure out, wait, do I have, is my drinking okay? Is my drinking normal? Like what does that say about me? So, but yeah. That’s so interesting.

Speaker 3 (09:43):

Yeah. So the seven days was to prove I was not an alcoholic.

Speaker 2 (09:49):

Okay. That

Speaker 3 (09:50):

Cuz seven days is enough. If you cannot drink for seven days, clearly you’re not an alcoholic and you’re good.

Speaker 2 (09:57):

No problems here. Look away . Yeah. Yep.

Speaker 3 (10:00):

So I did the seven days, obviously not an alcoholic, otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to take a break. Right.

Speaker 2 (10:07):

Right. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:08):

Um, so then I just went back.

Speaker 2 (10:09):

Yeah, of course. Check

Speaker 3 (10:11):

Drink tonight and celebrate.

Speaker 2 (10:13):

Yes. Totally. Okay. So seven days you’re feeling good. You’re like, Oh, okay, problem solved. Like this is, obviously, this is not a problem. Right. I mean, we’re laughing, but I think that’s very relatable because I do think that we’re taught that you’re not a problem unless you’re addicted, unless you have the shakes. Unless you’re drinking alone in the morning. Unless you’re hiding alcohol. Unless you’re losing everything. And so that was kind of your Yep. You were proving to yourself like, oh that’s no, that’s not me. And so I’m good. Like I, I think that that’s very relatable.

Speaker 3 (10:46):

Yeah. And I was talking to someone this morning who said like, I just, I can’t do 30 days. I’m trying so hard. And I keep getting to like three or four and then I fail and I’m like, do seven. Yeah. Just do seven. Set your challenge to be seven because then the end is in sight if you want like 30. I had a friend that was asking me around that time who’s questioning her own drinking and she kept asking like, Will you do dry January? Will you do a 30 day challenge with me? And I was like, no.

Speaker 2 (11:19):

Right. I

Speaker 3 (11:20):

Pitch 30 days. Like no

Speaker 2 (11:22):

Way. Feels like insurmountable. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:24):

Yeah. So that’s why I did seven and it still helped. I still learned something from seven days. Like it wasn’t just a big waste because it wasn’t a long time. It felt like a long time. Yeah. And yeah, so I wasn’t an alcoholic, you know, I kept blowing up my life internally and in, in the privacy of my own home, things worse and worse and

Speaker 2 (11:47):

Worse. And that’s, that was like, okay. And blackouts and all dude blackouts. Oof. Brutal

Speaker 3 (11:52):

Frequently. Yeah. Like I was a daily drinker. So that’s why seven felt like such a big deal. Blackouts like all the time.

Speaker 2 (12:00):

I feel like, do, do some people either get blackouts and some people don’t.

Speaker 3 (12:05):

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it’s genetic. Some people do, some people never will. Even if they drink the same quantity or even if they drink more. Um, Yeah. Some people just never will. Or they’ll get like fuzzy Yeah. Like brown outs. But they won’t full on blackout. But I’m so prone to it. Oh,

Speaker 2 (12:24):

I am too. And I’ve got, I, I’ve blacked out more times than I can count. And that I think is, I mean that’s terrifying

Speaker 3 (12:33):

As a woman. It’s very, very scary.

Speaker 2 (12:36):


Speaker 3 (12:37):

It’s scary for anyone, but especially as a woman. Oh my god. When you’re super drunk and blacked out and like sometimes I was in public, like trying to get home by myself in a blackout.

Speaker 2 (12:48):

Oh yeah. Sometimes I woke up in a guy’s bed and I was like, holy shit. Like this is not me. What happened? You’re piecing together the night. I mean I, I don’t know if there’s a worse feeling than like, what happened? What did I do? Where am I all of that O

Speaker 3 (13:05):

Yeah. Yeah. And the shame and like the jol. Yeah. And that’s when I would shame myself the most. That’s, I think that’s a big contributor to the self-hatred that I had is because I would go to bed and not remember going to bed. Yeah. And I would jot awake and be like, Man, you are such a freaking loser. Like, you don’t even remember like, why are you still wearing your clothes? Like you’re still in your makeup?

Speaker 2 (13:30):


Speaker 3 (13:30):

Why are you such a loser? Like why do you always do this? And, and then it would just spiral and get worse and worse and worse. Um mm-hmm. . Yeah. It was awful. And then that prompted me to take another break.

Speaker 2 (13:44):


Speaker 3 (13:44):

Cuz I was so afraid and the, the suicidal thoughts were so frequent and so strong and I was doing this lovely thing where I would force myself to stay awake and I wouldn’t allow myself to sleep probably four nights a week. It was frequent. Oh wow. And it was like after the jolt and I would force myself to stay awake until the sun would come up. Hmm. And I would spend like four hours thinking, Why are you such a loser? You have no self-control. Everyone’s gonna call you an alcoholic. If you can’t figure this out, you’re never gonna build a drink again. Why do you do this to your husband? Like all that kind of stuff. Yeah. For hours

Speaker 2 (14:26):

And just sitting in that like self-loathing and shame and all of that. It’s worst. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:33):

Yeah. So then I said, I’m not gonna drink for 90 days. Okay. Because I thought maybe 30 wouldn’t be enough. So I went from seven and then I drank every day for years. And then I’m like, okay, 90.

Speaker 2 (14:49):


Speaker 3 (14:50):

Let’s go.

Speaker 2 (14:51):

And was your husband at this point, was he, were you guys drinking together? Was he kind of seeing an issue?

Speaker 3 (14:59):

My husband’s such a good guy. Um, he grew up watching really heavy drinking. Uh, very frequent drinking. So he just thought it’s normal behavior. Totally. So that was also part of it too, is he thought I was normal. He didn’t see anything wrong with what I was doing. He didn’t, he used to always say, it’s like, it’s not how much you drink, it’s that you beat yourself up so much after you drink and if you can just stop doing that, then you’re fine. Yeah. And really, I was drinking like a lot, but he just didn’t understand. So he never thought that I, you know, was an alcoholic or he never questioned it. He just wanted me to stop shaming myself and mm-hmm. . But he was very supportive when I would do these breaks. Um, and he, when I would force myself to stay awake, he would stay up with me. Oh my god. To try. He’s such a good guy.

Speaker 2 (15:54):

Like he sounds like it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:55):

And that also fueled like the suicidal thoughts cuz I’m like, you don’t deserve him. Aww. Like, why are you making him so miserable? And I said it out loud to him, I was like, I can’t drink for 90 days mm-hmm. . And I thought like this is gonna cure me. Mm-hmm. , my tolerance is too high. This is a bad habit. This is a routine, you know, still not an alcoholic. Couldn’t possibly be. Yeah. And if I can just do these 90 days, I will be cured so I can drink again. So my intention was all like the whole time, like

Speaker 2 (16:33):

How can I drink quote unquote normally. Right. Like, let me just moderate. Yes. If I could just moderate everything it would be fine. Not, and it’s all on you. Right. It’s not on the substance, it’s not on the alcohol. It’s just you. There’s something wrong with you.

Speaker 3 (16:46):

It’s still my fault.

Speaker 2 (16:47):


Speaker 3 (16:48):

So I did the 90 days, um, and I tried to like convince myself a few times. Like it’s been long enough and Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:57):

You know,

Speaker 3 (16:58):

Or just, just this one time and then we’ll go back and we’ll do the rest of the 90 days. But my husband helped me and then I realized day 91 was my birthday.

Speaker 2 (17:10):

Oh wow. Okay.

Speaker 3 (17:12):

Which was that just set me up

Speaker 2 (17:14):


Speaker 3 (17:15):

For drinking. Totally.

Speaker 2 (17:17):


Speaker 3 (17:17):

Cause it’s a sign, right? It’s

Speaker 2 (17:19):

Sign Right. Celebrate with alcohol. Celebrate not drinking with alcohol. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:24):

How many people have done that? Right.

Speaker 2 (17:26):

I totally, I think that that those like 30 day challenges, and I’ve talked about this a little bit before. It is like, I, I like those. I, I understand that it kind of gets people thinking about life, maybe experiencing life without alcohol and giving it a chance. But also part of it is you’re just counting down to to when you can drink. Exactly. And then that kind of defeats the purpose.

Speaker 3 (17:49):

Yeah. So all I cared about was moderating. Yeah. When I went back to drinking, I didn’t care about the benefits or like I didn’t care about sobriety at all. I had no interest. I did however, finally notice that I didn’t have anxiety anymore cuz it was long enough. Seven days. You’re still in withdrawal. Totally. Um, but I did notice like, oh my god, I haven’t had any anxiety this whole time. I haven’t felt suicidal one single night. Yeah. What a surprise.

Speaker 2 (18:24):

. You’re like, Huh, let’s go back to it. .

Speaker 3 (18:27):

How interesting. All of, all of the negatives went away.

Speaker 2 (18:31):

Yeah. What a coincidence. .

Speaker 3 (18:34):

But it was still me. It was still my fault. Right. Cause I drank so much, I couldn’t control myself. It’s still all my fault

Speaker 2 (18:43):

That you can’t moderate an addictive substance. Right. Yeah. Okay. And so then you went back to drinking and then what happened?

Speaker 3 (18:54):

Uh, so on my birthday I had a plan to have two drinks and stop. And I didn’t, I had like six drinks.

Speaker 2 (19:03):

. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:04):

But it was everybody else’s fault. Like, you know, we got a free drink cuz it was my birthday and that was the third drink. And then, you know, it was everybody else’s fall.

Speaker 2 (19:14):

Uhhuh .

Speaker 3 (19:15):

But then I did moderate, I did, I had two drinks on Saturdays and that was it.

Speaker 2 (19:22):

Okay. So that was your rule for yourself. You could have two drinks on Saturdays

Speaker 3 (19:26):

Down from like total daily drinking.

Speaker 2 (19:29):

Yeah. Okay. So how long did that go?

Speaker 3 (19:32):

That lasted two months and I isolated the whole time. Yeah. So I would not go out.

Speaker 2 (19:40):


Speaker 3 (19:41):

If I did go out, I would not drink. So I had a rule I’m not gonna drink at parties or like social events because when I go out with other people, they make me drink too much.

Speaker 2 (19:55):

Yeah. Right. And so it was a very controlled environment like, but you were able not to drink when you went out. I mean that’s, that’s huge. That probably felt good

Speaker 3 (20:06):

And I felt wow, I am actually cured. It worked.

Speaker 2 (20:11):


Speaker 3 (20:12):

And then,

Speaker 2 (20:12):

And then

Speaker 3 (20:14):

Uh, we went on vacation. Okay. So you can’t isolate forever. Mm-hmm. , you can’t avoid drinking, you know, in public forever. Yeah.

So we went on a cruise and we had the drink package. Okay. And I told myself it’s a special occasion you can drink the way that you want. Yeah. And then you’re gonna go back home and moderate. Cuz I always wanted to drink on special occasions. That was like always the goal. So I drank every day. Oh my God. I can’t even look at the pictures actually from that vacation because I humiliated myself so much. It was awful. Like the memories are so painful and it was my first time going to Europe. Like it was supposed to be this really amazing vacation.

Speaker 2 (21:02):


Speaker 3 (21:03):

And it was a mess. And then I came home and I was back to normal. Mm-hmm. , I was drinking every single day. I could not stop blacking out all the time. The anxiety and the suicidal thoughts came right back.

Speaker 2 (21:18):


Speaker 3 (21:19):

Yeah. You know, big, big surprise, right? Yeah. Yeah. I beat the crap out of myself for months and I tried so hard to get back to that place I was at where I was moderating and I just couldn’t. Yeah. The all night hate yourself. Parties started again. Ugh. It was awful. It was so bad. And then one random night I just got so drunk and like, so out of control and the suicidal thoughts were so scary. I realized like, you’re gonna do something about this eventually. Mm. If you keep feeling this way. And like it was, it was taking up hours and hours of my time feeling that way.

Speaker 2 (22:03):

Oh man. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:04):

Because of that 90 day experience. I knew you drink this way, you stop drinking and it goes away and now it’s back. Yeah. And I can’t get back to like, I learned so many things from that 90 days and then the vacation and like going back that I realized like, this is just how you drink. This is it. Right. This is what you do. And you know, my husband was there of course taking care of me and I was like, I can never drink ever again. Mm-hmm. . And I just said it and he was like,

Speaker 2 (22:41):

, what? Yeah. He’s like, What do I do with this? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:44):

And then that, that was it. And that was almost three years ago. Wow. But I sang it out loud, helped me a lot. I just, I accepted it. Yes. And as soon as I said it, even though it’s so scary to say never again, I also felt a lot of peace cuz I was suffering like, oh my god, I was suffering so much. And like I knew that all of that was about to go away. And even though like I was obsessed with wine and all I wanted to do was drink wine, like, you know, a normal person. Yeah. I accepted like, you just can’t, like, I just can’t figure it out.

Speaker 2 (23:20):

I can’t

Speaker 3 (23:21):

Do it. I can’t figure it out.

Speaker 2 (23:22):

Yeah. I I think your story is so relatable in the kind of the fits and starts of sobriety. I I think that it’s pretty rare that someone is just going to just wake up one day and be like, Oh, I’m done. And then just be done. I think that, yeah, a lot of the times, whatever their drinking story looks like, whatever the quote unquote rock bottom looks like, even if it is one or if it’s not one or their version or whatever, that these breaks do. Teach us something. Even if it’s just a break and then you go back, like you, you were able to see, you were able to then connect, Oh, my anxiety is, and suicidal thoughts are so much worse with alcohol. I mean, that’s what’s causing them. And you wouldn’t have had that had you not had a break and then maybe gone back and see that they came back.

Speaker 3 (24:11):

Exactly. I needed that. I would’ve never connected it ever. I had to see, and then going back, like we beat ourselves. Like you see people, they’ll post like, you know, three months down the drain or, or six months down the drain or something. And it’s like you just learned something that you ne you needed to learn that you needed that

Speaker 2 (24:33):

And learning. Then I, I think even going back to alcohol, I mean, you did your own science experiment, you know? Yep. Like, well let’s go back to it. And then that is important too, to see like, okay, you had to show yourself, you can’t moderate, like that had to be very clear to you. And then also the mental health struggles that it caused. Like I think your story’s so important in that way of just like, no, it, it wasn’t just, I’m done. Okay. I’m done. It was like you had to see

Speaker 3 (25:03):

Yeah, I really needed that proof or I never would’ve, but, and it didn’t matter in the end, like all the stupid rationalizing that I was doing and why I couldn’t possibly be an alcoholic and like, oh, everybody’s gonna, you know, like gossip about it. Right. It didn’t matter anymore. All that mattered is like, I understand my suffering is from my drinking, so I can’t drink. Yeah. That’s the only thing. And then eventually the other stuff mattered again a little bit, but in the moment Right. All that mattered is like, I know for a fact my suffering is from my drinking. Yeah. And it’s not me anymore. It wasn’t my fault.

Speaker 2 (25:45):

Right. You left, you let yourself off the hook and you were like, Hey, I’m putting myself first before this toxic substance that

Speaker 3 (25:55):

Is stupid dream

Speaker 2 (25:56):

Taken so much already. Right? Yeah. That’s so important. And, and now look what you’ve done in sobriety. I mean it’s, that’s amazing. So talk about sober powered and how that came about.

Speaker 3 (26:09):

So it was very private actually. So I stopped drinking in November and that was when the holidays were coming. And, and I was working in biotech and that’s a really big drinking culture. Okay. There’s a lot of partying. There’s alcohol like in the kitchen at work.

Speaker 2 (26:26):

Oh really?

Speaker 3 (26:27):

Yeah. A lot of people aren’t aware there’s, it’s a very big drinking culture.

Speaker 2 (26:31):

Can I ask you something? What’s biotech ?

Speaker 3 (26:35):

You can ask that.

Speaker 2 (26:37):

I mean, is it, Well, no, I I’m not even Okay, just tell me what it is or like what you did and what Oh,

Speaker 3 (26:43):

. So like a pharmaceutical company like Pfizer.

Speaker 2 (26:46):

Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah. Oh wow. So yeah, cuz I always think like in sales and stuff, there’s gonna be a lot of drinking, but not even the sales part. So just all of it.

Speaker 3 (26:55):

Yeah. This is the lab work part.

Speaker 2 (26:56):

Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (26:57):

I worked in research lab, so there’d be people that worked in the lab. There’d be like people that, you know, directed stuff that kind of made all the decisions and didn’t really go in the lab. There’d be like business people or legal people. Okay. So there it was maybe like 50 50 between people who actually did the experiments and people that were more on the business side. But yeah, biotech means like a, a research pharmaceutical type company.

Speaker 2 (27:25):

Okay. And and you guys had alcohol in the kitchen?

Speaker 3 (27:28):


Speaker 2 (27:28):

Yep. So here’s a, here’s that . It’s like a Yeah, right. It was like, well go do some experiments, but let’s take a shot first. It was probably wasn’t like that, but still

Speaker 3 (27:38):

You were encouraged not to go back to the lab if you drank,

Speaker 2 (27:42):

But, but people did.

Speaker 3 (27:44):

I’m not gonna say I didn’t, I didn’t because I didn’t want

Speaker 2 (27:47):

You don’t have to call him out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:49):

I didn’t because I wanted to go drink more, so.

Speaker 2 (27:52):

Yeah. Right. What’s, what’s the fun of stopping and then working? Right. What? Keep it

Speaker 3 (27:56):

Going. No, thank you. Yeah. We even had, um, at one place I worked at a margarita machine in the kitchen. Oh

Speaker 2 (28:03):

My god. Wow.

Speaker 3 (28:04):

Very big drinking culture. So I was in the middle of that in the holiday season as just like a little sober baby. Oh. It was really hard. So I was going to all these happy hours because I felt that I had to prove that nothing has to change.

Speaker 2 (28:20):

And you’re still fun. You’re still the

Speaker 3 (28:23):

Same. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (28:24):

And so what got you through that? Like, were you going to aa you st or did you still not relate to the term alcoholic? Cuz do you know how I feel about that?

Speaker 3 (28:34):

Yeah. I don’t consider myself an alcoholic. Like I know Sure. It’s factual that,

Speaker 2 (28:40):

I mean is it, what is an A alcohol? What is it? I don’t even know.

Speaker 3 (28:43):

Like for people that use that word like Yeah. It’s, it’s factual. If you think about me and my situation, I just don’t embrace that word. So I didn’t do anything.

Speaker 2 (28:54):

Okay. You were, you had just decided cuz you had conducted your own experiment. You saw it for what it was and then you were like, I’m gonna do this. But then you kind of just put yourself back into the situation just to do it like sink or swim.

Speaker 3 (29:06):

Yep. So I, uh, decided I was different from everyone else and I didn’t need help.

Speaker 2 (29:12):

Mm-hmm. .

Speaker 3 (29:12):

Mm-hmm. . I can do this on my own. I’m strong enough, you know. Yeah. So stupid. But

Speaker 2 (29:18):

I don’t, Yeah. I think it’s, it’s all very relatable.

Speaker 3 (29:21):

Everybody thinks that I, I should be strong enough to do this on my own. Like help, getting help doesn’t mean you’re weak, it means you’re courageous. But I thought it meant you’re weak

Speaker 2 (29:33):

Yes. In every area of your life.

Speaker 3 (29:36):

Yeah. So I literally did nothing. I just plucked alcohol out of my life and then live the same life. Okay. And I would go to all these happy hours and then I would cry in my car after like I would get through it and I would not drink and I would, you know, do the thing. And then from all the built up stress, I would cry afterwards, but it was brief. Mm-hmm. . But I had to get it out and then I would feel so proud of myself,

Speaker 2 (30:04):

Which is just the be I I always say like that it’s, I don’t know, a better feeling and being able to count on yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:13):

Yeah. I did this and

Speaker 2 (30:14):

Showing yourself that you can put yourself and your mental health first. Like that’s so empowering.

Speaker 3 (30:21):

Yeah. And then that’s where sober powered came from.

Speaker 2 (30:24):

Yeah. Okay. So talk about that.

Speaker 3 (30:27):

I think it came about like within my first month, like I was going to all these stupid happy hours and crying after, but then I was feeling like, yeah, I’m tough. Look at me like I did that. Yeah. And I started to get more self-esteem. I start, I went from like desperately hating myself to, I didn’t like love myself or think I was the most amazing, but I was slowly building up some self-esteem. Yeah. And like when I said I was gonna do something, I would do it. And it’s like, whoa, look at, look at me.

Speaker 2 (31:02):


Speaker 3 (31:03):

And I realize like, this is only because of sobriety and that’s where mm-hmm. , sober powered came from because the power that I get from going to these happy hours and not drinking then can go to every aspect of my life and allow me to do really hard things cuz I’m building up this confidence and this belief in myself. Yeah. So that’s where it came from.

Speaker 2 (31:26):

I love that so much. So much. Thank you. Did it start as the podcast or what, what was the first sober powered adventure?

Speaker 3 (31:35):

? So it was the podcast. So I was, so when I stopped I really like, believed everything about, you know, alcoholics, our losers and they can’t control themselves. They’re weak, that’s why they can’t drink. And I just wanted to know like, is that true about me? Am I actually weak? Mm-hmm. . So I just started researching it and learning about the science and I started that like day two sobriety. And I started learning like why I was having the experiences that I did and how it had nothing to do with like, who I am. And I started seeing my drinking more like a, like a case study, like something to be examined and not like a mm-hmm. not like a good or bad or like loser or strong person thing. And I did it every day for months and months and months. I just read and educated myself and then it was really helping. And when I was eight months sober, I woke up and I was like, I gotta tell people, like, everyone needs to know this because then they will realize that they don’t suck either .

Speaker 2 (32:50):

Right. They’re not weak and they’re not Right.

Speaker 3 (32:54):

And it’s not their fault.

Speaker 2 (32:56):


Speaker 3 (32:56):

And it’s not a choice and, and that whole thing. And I thought like, okay, how can I tell people? And then eventually I settled on podcast mm-hmm. , but I didn’t know how to do one. Yeah. So that was, that was a little roadblock, but I was determined

Speaker 2 (33:11):

. Yes. Yes.

Speaker 3 (33:13):

So I, I actually zoom called myself for my first episode cuz we, we were in quarantine at that point.

Speaker 2 (33:20):

Yeah. So you started in 2020? Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (33:22):

. So I zoom called myself to record cuz I didn’t, I didn’t know how to record and then I just put it out the same day. Oh wow. I made my Instagram that same day. So like, it started with the podcast, but I did it all kind of at once. Okay. And yeah, it’s just been really helpful for me and, and I know me explaining it has helped other people cuz I know not everybody has the large quantities of hours that I that I spend investigating Yeah. And learning. So I, I can like research something for hours and condense it in the 15 minutes. Like I know that that helps a lot of people. But

Speaker 2 (34:01):

I was gonna say like your episodes are very like bite sized and they’re like, you can do like on a walk with the dog and, and how you just break everything down and it’s all just science based and you, like I said, like you know what you’re talking about. Thank you. So that’s one of the reasons I wanted to have you on here too, just to talk about what alcohol really does, like how it causes anxiety and doesn’t help us relax and doesn’t help with sleep. And also why we crave sugar when we’re done drinking . Cause that’s a hu I mean

Speaker 3 (34:33):

That’s a huge one.

Speaker 2 (34:34):

Oh that’s a huge one that I think a lot of people don’t, they don’t know. And then when, when they stop drinking, I get a lot of questions like why am I craving sugar? And I’m always like, go with it. Like, don’t worry about the sugar right now because like, you know, you can’t black out from too much sugar so just go, just go with it. You probably will feel like shit. But

Speaker 3 (34:54):

Not as bad though.

Speaker 2 (34:56):

Not nearly as bad. Not nearly as bad. I am just now cuz I’m like just over two and a half years sober and I’m just now being like, Oh right, I need to address this sugar

Speaker 3 (35:07):

Issue. Oh, same, same.

Speaker 2 (35:08):

Yeah. I think I’m on like week two and I’m like, oh my god. And I don’t, I’m not even like cutting out, I’m just cutting out like treats or I’m trying to cut out. Well I’m slowly cutting out treats. I’m not like cutting out sugar cuz that’s, that’s bananas. But just trying to lower my sugar intake a little bit just now.

Speaker 3 (35:27):

Same. Yeah. I started talking to my therapist about it. So I started therapy when, when I was four months sober and I finally was like, Okay, I’ll get some help . Yeah. But now we’re talking about sugar. And she said something to me that was like, it just like totally blew my mind. She said, We want you to eat sugar because you want it, not because you’re trying to satisfy a craving. And I was like, Oh, I am eating it because I’m craving it. I also want it, but I’m mainly, I’m craving it and I feel uncomfortable. Yes. And then I eat sugar and the discomfort goes away.

Speaker 2 (36:08):


Speaker 3 (36:09):

So she said that now I can’t, I can never unknow that .

Speaker 2 (36:13):

Right. Don’t you love those little gems that you’re like, Okay, okay. Yep. Well that’s, so I always look at it like, I’m like, Oh, with sugar it will never be enough until I actually feel sick. Until I, until I’m unable to eat anymore. And I’m so like, I could eat a whole box of m and ms those theater and, and be like, No, I could eat that whole thing. Like, I, I won’t stop until I physically am like, oh, I feel like crap. That’s just, Yeah. That’s not me enjoying it. Yeah. Like, that’s not me being like, Oh, I, I love this and no, that’s just me. Yeah. Satisfying this craving until it goes away. And that yeah. That’s, that

Speaker 3 (36:52):

Is such a good point. Thank you for that. Yeah. You’re not enjoying it, but you’re enjoying the first few bites and then it’s a compulsion.

Speaker 2 (37:02):

Yes. And then it’s just like, Oh, I’ll eat it till it’s gone. Or until I literally, I’m gonna like wanna throw up. I don’t, but I Yeah. And it’s not, no, it’s not enjoyable. Okay. Anxiety because, you know, my mom’s a therapist. I asked her, has she ever had a client who doesn’t suffer from anxiety? And she says no. Like, I just don’t know, especially women. Like I, I don’t think I can think of a person who doesn’t suffer from anxiety or who has in her lifetime. And so like what does alcohol do to our brain? Why does it not help with anxiety and why does it make it worse?

Speaker 3 (37:41):

Yeah. We think alcohol helps us relax and calm down and it technically does. Mm-hmm. . But that’s because it slows down your brain activity. So if your brain is slower, all of those racing anxious thoughts are now not possible.

Speaker 2 (38:00):

Oh, your brain is

Speaker 3 (38:02):

Because your brain is slower. Yeah. That’s it. So Sure. Like you are more calm. Yeah. But it’s because your brain is slower.

Speaker 2 (38:12):

Oh, wow. And with serotonin too, doesn’t it? It messes with that. So it messes with our happiness, dopamine situation. These are the words that I use these, I use

Speaker 3 (38:23):

Situation, I use that word all the

Speaker 2 (38:25):

Time. . It’s very scientific. It is. I’m like the dopamine situation, . Um, it messes with that completely. Right?

Speaker 3 (38:32):

Yep. So when you drink, so we all have like the, this baseline serotonin, let’s pretend on a scale of one to a hundred, it’s like fifties your baseline, but everybody’s different. Okay.

Speaker 2 (38:45):

Mine try like 30 .

Speaker 3 (38:47):

Yeah. Right. And that makes it even worse for us. And we’re more likely to struggle with alcohol because when you drink your serotonin shoots up. So maybe it goes from 30 to 80. Okay. And now you feel happy. And that’s why people describe themselves as happy drunks. And then if you see these same happy drunks at the end of the night, you’ll see these drunk girls crying in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (39:12):

That was me. Same.

Speaker 3 (39:14):

So embarrassing. I did it at the bar sometimes. So embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (39:18):

Yeah. Oh. Cause you don’t even realize where you are. And and my favorite is when it’s like a person that you like just met like 20 minutes ago and you’re like, you’re my new best friend.

Speaker 3 (39:27):

And they’re like, Please leave

Speaker 2 (39:29):

. They’re like, what’s your name again? This, this will be

Speaker 3 (39:33):

A good story. I can tell my actual friends

Speaker 2 (39:36):

. Yeah, exactly. Go away.

Speaker 3 (39:38):

Yeah. So towards the end of the night your serotonin drops, but it doesn’t just drop back to normal, it drops below normal.

Speaker 2 (39:48):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:49):

Oh yeah. And that’s why you get really sad and cry. It’s just like a chemistry thing. It’s not like, because it’s not you. Right. It’s a chemistry thing. But what happens when you repeat the process over and over and over, your baseline starts to get lower and lower and lower. So if your baseline in the beginning was a 50, eventually your brain adapts and now your baseline’s a 40 Oh. And then your baseline’s a 30

Speaker 2 (40:16):

And that’s when you’re not drinking. Yeah. So that’s just like with everyday stuff now, now you’re not finding the joy in everyday stuff that you did

Speaker 3 (40:24):

Before. Yeah. And then you’re drinking just to get back to a 50 eventually.

Speaker 2 (40:29):

Oh. And then you’re gonna drop below

Speaker 3 (40:32):

It. So not even to be happy. Yeah. And then it, it keeps feeding this cycle where you get this like little instant gratification thing of like coming back up and feeling better. Yeah. But then you, it it just makes it worse after. And then you are even worse than you were before. And that’s why it’s so common for people to be very suicidal at the end. Both from the way that their brain adjusts to chronic heavy drinking, but also just because the low self-worth and low self-esteem. But it’s this chemistry thing where you just get so depressed and if you get super depressed over time it’s, it’s just more likely that you’re gonna feel very suicidal. Yeah. Um, so that’s, so it’s not I’m a suicidal person anymore. It’s that I had all this adaptation that was making me very, very low and then I would be even lower when I would jo to awake in the middle of the night. Yes. I’d be like in the negatives.

Speaker 2 (41:33):

Totally. In the negatives and sweating and heart racing and anxiety and like just

Speaker 3 (41:40):


Speaker 2 (41:41):

Oh god. And it’s not that like when you drink alcohol, you immediately feel down it’s that is it that first like 20 minutes of feeling like, oh this is okay now this is, this feels good. Right. And then you’re just constantly trying to feel that way again. But it’s, you’re not gonna get

Speaker 3 (41:57):

There. Yeah. And that’s why we don’t think it’s the alcohol. Cuz the alcohol fixes our problem for the first like hour.

Speaker 2 (42:05):


Speaker 3 (42:06):

You know, we feel calm, we feel happy again. Um, all of our problems don’t matter as much. And then as the alcohol wears off and you feel even worse, you think that’s you, but it’s the alcohol. Yeah. And then we drink again because we think alcohol fixes, you know, it calms me down and makes me not hate myself. But then the, the drinking so much is causing all of those things, but we don’t connect the end of the story.

Speaker 2 (42:35):

Right. We, we don’t give alcohol the full picture. We’re like, oh, it’s the good part, but obviously the bad part it’s is me. Yep. That’s like, I always think about when I see a picture, like if someone takes a picture of myself and it’s a good angle, I’m like, Oh, well that’s just a good angle. And if it’s a bad angle, I’m like, Oh, that’s me. That’s what I really look like. Yep. It’s like, well no, it’s it’s all the camera and you

Speaker 3 (42:59):

. Exactly. Yeah. And, and we blame ourselves and then we think alcohol is the only good thing. Like it’s our best friend. It’s the only thing that helps, but really it’s the thing that’s doing all of these bad or worsening. You know, if you started off with anxiety now your anxiety’s probably a hundred times worse from all the drinking and you know, you’ll see it in tolerance. Like as you know, someone starts with one glass of wine to wind down. Mm-hmm. , eventually they go to two and then they go to three. And that’s because their brain is adapting and they need more. So with, with anxiety, we said like alcohol slows down your brain so your thoughts can’t race. And so things become less important. Messages aren’t being sent as quickly, but your brain wants to be normal and balanced. So it’s gonna do things to counteract mm-hmm. the alcohol. So it’s gonna speed up your brain basically. So to try to bring it back Oh, to normal.

Speaker 2 (43:59):

Right. Cause we’re always seeking HESTAs. Exactly. Right. Like our body, that’s why we sweat. That’s why we do all these things. We always want, our body’s always constantly trying to bring us back to normal.

Speaker 3 (44:09):

Yeah. So when the alcohol wears off, it’s not slowing your brain down anymore, but your brain has done things to speed itself up to counteract the alcohol. So now you’re just sped up. Oh. So that’s where the anxiety comes from. So now you’ve shot up, like if your anxiety baseline is a 50, now you’re up at, at like a 75 and you think like, I’m such an anxious person, I need to

Speaker 2 (44:36):

Drink. Right. Yes. I need to drink when really that’s what’s doing it.

Speaker 3 (44:41):


Speaker 2 (44:42):

That’s so interesting. I, my anxiety story and I haven’t like shared the whole thing cuz it’s a, that’s a long story and I’ll probably do that sometime soon. But I have personally seen how much sobriety has helped my anxiety that I’m almost off. I, I went on Zoloft when my oldest was a year and a half because I had a really bad postpartum anxiety and O C D and I had been on that since. And I was like, Oh, okay, this is what I need. I’m almost off of it because like, and, and I didn’t even realize until maybe six months ago, maybe not even that, I was like, wait a second, I don’t think I’m having anxiety anymore. And that was like a shock . I was like, how is this even I thought I was just an anxious person. I thought that that was me.

Speaker 3 (45:34):

Yep. And we don’t realize it. And that’s why breaks are so effective. Because you need, Yeah. You need to get clarity. Like alcohol prevents us from thinking clearly when we drink so much of it. But you need to get distance from it so you can see what kind of person you are. maybe you don’t even know.

Speaker 2 (45:53):

Right. To I I think that’s so true. Especially I, I’m from Wisconsin and we start drinking early , like we start drinking before our frontal lobes are formed and like that that Yeah. Like a lot of people I think don’t even know who they are without alcohol, which can be really scary. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:12):

Right. Yeah. If you started drinking as a teen and you’ve never socialized without it, you feel that it’s essential. It’s just a stupid drink. Like it’s not Yes. It’s not essential.

Speaker 2 (46:23):

No, it’s not essential. It’s a stupid drink we drink when we’re not thirsty, which is just bananas. .

Speaker 3 (46:28):

Yeah. It’s a, like, it just, you know, changes your, your mood. That’s it. It allows you to control how you feel and nothing else will really do that. But you can in sobriety, like do the work to improve your, like if you have social anxiety, alcohol’s not medicine for that. No. It just makes you temporarily not care. But you can actually work on your social anxiety in sobriety or you can be more mindful about, you know, the things that you say yes to.

Speaker 2 (47:00):

Totally. That. I mean, that’s, that’s huge. I, I think going to something if, if you feel like you need to drink and if it’s not fun, you don’t have to go . If, if you’re gonna be around people and you wanna drink and they’re drinking and that’s the connection. Yeah. Maybe take a break from those people until you’re really confident that they add value to your life or I think that’s huge.

Speaker 3 (47:27):

Yeah. It’s not, we don’t have to to go to everything and that was really empowering for me to learn. I thought I had to go to everything. No I

Speaker 2 (47:35):

Don’t. Yeah. Did you continue going to happy hours? Like once you kind of learned the truth about alcohol once you were in therapy and really kind of working on what sobriety means to you? Did you continue that going to happy hours?

Speaker 3 (47:50):

So the world shut down for a bit, so I was like shielded. Um, so I don’t know if I would’ve stopped. Yeah. But I don’t, I stopped going like I switched jobs during quarantine. Um, and I just like didn’t go. I went to a couple things and I’m like, this is boring. I don’t care about these people. No, no offense .

Speaker 2 (48:14):

If you’re listening, she does care about you a little bit.

Speaker 3 (48:17):

A little. Not as much as I care about myself.

Speaker 2 (48:20):

Yeah, exactly. Some of you are cool, some of you aren’t. Yeah. I think that’s interesting. It’s also interesting cuz I stopped drinking in January, 2020 and so it’s, it is, people were like, how was, you know your social life right after you stopped drinking? I’m like,

Speaker 3 (48:36):


Speaker 2 (48:38):

my kid. Yeah. My kids and I hung out. It was great. Yeah. It was not, I didn’t have to do that. So now

Speaker 3 (48:43):

I went on Instagram a lot, so,

Speaker 2 (48:46):

So much my Instagram social life was off the chain. Yep.

Speaker 3 (48:50):

Same. I DMed a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (48:52):

. Yeah. I had a lot of anxiety about it, but it was good. I got through it. man, Instagram I swear was definitely a, a lifeline in early sobriety. I, I think that, I always say it gets a bad rap, but it’s, you can connect. That’s how we connected. That’s how all everybody I’ve met in sobriety, that’s how we’ve connected.

Speaker 3 (49:15):

Yeah. And it helps me because I see people that I look up to and then they’ll share something crazy and I’ll be like, Oh my gosh. Like I was never that bad, but like, that’s my first thought. But then my second thought is like, I don’t think she’s a loser for that. Yeah. I don’t think she’s a bad person or a weak person at all. And then I’m like, why do you have to think that way about yourself then? Right. So it it helps in that way too.

Speaker 2 (49:47):

It does. Yeah. The judgment we have of ourselves, uh, is some, I know we’re so hard on ourselves. It’s brutal. It’s so brutal. I know. It, it always helps me to think about myself as a little kid and like, No, that’s, that’s me. That’s still me in there.

Speaker 3 (50:04):

I think about myself as a case study, not like an actual person. .

Speaker 2 (50:09):

Yeah. I mean that makes sense for you. You know what I mean? Like that that gives you perspective and you could be more objective then it’s not this judgment and shame. It’s like no, no, no. We’re gonna take those feelings out of it. Exactly. Because you, you don’t have feelings when there’s a case study. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:27):

It’s like a book that I’m reading is like, I mean, you can judge the character in the book, but I see it more as just like a thing and not like me.

Speaker 2 (50:38):

Yeah. That’s so interesting. Well, you guys, you have to check out Sober power. Jill does the Lord’s work in this, in this podcast Breaking down. I I just love how it’s, it’s factual and you guys know I’m not, I don’t share any facts, . I don’t, I don’t, I don’t fact check myself. Who the hell knows what I say on

Speaker 3 (51:00):

Here? Yes. Say situations.

Speaker 2 (51:01):

Yeah. Situations.

Speaker 3 (51:02):

That’s what you share, .

Speaker 2 (51:04):

Yes, exactly. No, no. Facts are, this is our first fact based episode. . No, but it’s awesome. And do you do coaching too? Or do you have, you have, Tell me about that. Like what’s, Yeah, what do you have with that?

Speaker 3 (51:19):

So I have a membership for sober people. Um, it’s not coaching, it’s just like hanging out extra content, extra like perspective stuff. Oh. Um, okay. And then I bring in experts in there, but I do coaching for podcasters, so I help. Oh yeah. So I help podcasters like, you know, learn kind of what they’re doing, Learn how to market, learn how to grow their show, start a show if they don’t know how. You

Speaker 2 (51:46):

Just started a network, right. Did you start a podcast network? That’s amazing.

Speaker 3 (51:50):

Yeah. Yeah. So I have a network of five shows on my own.

Speaker 2 (51:54):

Oh, that’s so well, congratulations. Thank you. Like, look at what you’ve done, You know what I mean? Like

Speaker 3 (52:00):

It’s sober power, you know, it

Speaker 2 (52:02):

Is sober power. I love sober power and I love everything that you’re putting out there because it, I, I learned stuff then I’m like, hey, these feelings and thoughts that I’m sharing might actually be factually based , which, who knew? Cause I did not . Um, no, I really appreciate it. And I also love how you guys, her episodes are like, you know, 20 minutes, 15 minutes, 18 minutes. Like they’re, they’re so bite sized and she really like breaks down stuff in a way that I can understand . And so I really appreciate, I’m just not a science person. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (52:35):

That is okay.

Speaker 2 (52:36):

Yeah. Well, thank you Jill. Thank you for being here. You guys go check her out. I’ll put everything in, um, the show notes so you they can go follow you. Thank

Speaker 3 (52:44):

You. And thank you for inviting me. This was, this was really fun. I’m

Speaker 2 (52:47):

So glad you can come back and, and tell me facts anytime. . Any,

Speaker 3 (52:51):

Anytime you need a factual episode. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:54):

I’m your girl. I know, I know. Okay, good. , thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Sober Mom Life. If you loved it, please rate and review it wherever you listen. Five stars is amazing. Also, follow me on Instagram at the sober mom life. Okay, I’ll see you next week. I’m gonna go reheat my coffee. Bye.

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